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IGNOBLUS

Suri Suri Mahasuri Susuri Sabaha.
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Antisemitism: Why the Left Should Care

Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:44 PM EDT
politics, racism, palestine, lebanon, hate, anti-semitism, isreal, antisemitism
By ignoblus

Live Poll

How big a problem do you think antisemitism is?

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  • 1926
    huge problem
    23%
  • 1927
    could become a huge problem someday
    31%
  • 1928
    outside the West, it is a problem
    15%
  • 1929
    not that big a problem in most places
    23%
  • 1930
    not that big a problem
    8%

VoteTotal Votes: 13

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(Part I of ??) I've been intending to do a series of articles on just what is antisemitism and how critics of Israel can avoid it. There are two reasons I'd like to start this now. One, there is clearly a problem on Newsvine with discussion becoming polarized and people feeling deeply offended. Two, I just last night attended a panel discussion on combatting antisemitism on the left. Of the three panelists, one dealt primarily with the ecology of fascism. The other two came to see antisemitism as a problem only after working for other leftist causes including Palestinian rights. Two of the three panelists would probably describe themselves anti-Zionists, for different reasons. All were willing to and did criticize Israeli policy harshly.

This first article will be about why everyone should be opposed to antisemitism. Later articles will focus on what antisemitism actually is, including historical and "modern" antisemitism, and where to draw the line. I may do one about the prevalence of contemporary (as opposed to modern) antisemitism, however, it will more likely find expression in each of the articles.

Clearly, the most fundamental reason should be simply that antisemitism is morally wrong. Historically, Jews have only found allies in the struggle against antisemitism when it was convenient for other groups. For example, during the Dreyfus Affair, many critics were only motivated by the opportunity to oppose the French military. One problem with this sort of article is that it may seem to propose a desire to use antisemitism (and effectively to use Jews) as a means to an end. Please do not make that mistake.

On her website, one of the panelists, April Rosenblum, notes that:

A friend of mine gave a talk on her experience working with the International Solidarity Movement in Palestine, to a progressive religious congregation in the Philadelphia area. In the Q&A, she was asked about antisemitism in the Palestinian population and responds that she didn't observe it. Afterwards, she told me privately that she saw tons of antisemitism on Palestinian TV, and around her, but that she would never say that to an audience. Hushing news of antisemitism is seen as a responsible way to protect oppressed groups.

The phenomenon she refers to, of hushing antisemitism, is not merely of disregarding antsemitism from Palestinian groups or the Iranian regime. It includes being quiet about antisemitism in places like New York City, as well. There is a long history on the left of ignoring the problem for what seem to be two primary reasons:

  • It is not seen as a serious problem
  • It is seen as a solution

I.

One of the stereotypes of Jews is that they are a superpriveleged group, rich and powerful. As such, they are not seen as vulnerable. People on the left often wonder why they should waste resources combatting prejudice against elites. However, Jews are not so elite even in areas where they are most secure. The stereotype ignores the experiences of Jews in large parts of the world -- ranging from Russia, where 20 Ministers of Parliament backed by 500 prominent members of society called for a ban on all Jewish organizations, to France, where Ilan Halimi was slowly tortured to death by a gang that told the family to get the ransom money from their Rabbi if they didn't have it themselves, to the Bible Belt of the US. The stereotype ignores Sephardic and other Jews (including blacks who might be more vulnerable to the blatant antisemitism of many black nationalist groups), focusing on Ashkenazic Jews only. Even among American, Ashkenazic Jews in places like New York City, 1 in 3 are recent immigrants and 1 in 5 live at or below the national poverty line (about the same level as other groups), and these Jews are ignored in the construction of the stereotype.

Among that subset of Jews who do not directly experience antisemitism of these sorts described above, there is a dilemma of whether we should consider or describe ourselves as oppressed in any real and meaningful way. Last night, one audience participant suggested that we should describe ourselves as a "vulnerable minority," suggesting that anti-Semitism could potentially result in a future of very real oppression. Panelist April Rosenblum disagreed for the reason that she thinks it is true that Jews are oppressed. Even in a place like New York, People have on a personal level felt the sting of exclusion and hatred. Jewish activists are "litmus tested" and hear things like "there are too many Jews at this party." There are copies of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion on sale all over the city (mostly in "black radical" – though more accurately "black reactionary" – bookstores).

And that is how antisemitism has always worked. There have always been cycles where some Jewish communities have it pretty good for a while. There have been Jewish golden ages where people must have thought they'd seen the end of antisemitism. But as Jews attain some degree of power then the conspiracy theories become marketable. In this way, antisemitism has always had a cyclical nature. Jews do have reasons to be afraid even at times when antisemitism seems confined to low levels. I'd argue that that fear is oppression itself, but even if you disagree on that point, the historical reality is that we can't argue that antisemitism is behind us just because violence directed at Jews is currently at low levels.

II.

The first speaker of the night Peter Staudenmeier began with a story about a document he read in Italy. He noted that, as an anarchist, he was impressed with the anticapitalist stance and anti-Stalinist stance. In fact, he noted, it seemed like a really wonderful group to him in so many ways. The text was a little antisemitic toward the end, but not so much. However, this was actually a fascist group arguing that Italian fascism wasn't fascist enough. The title of the work was "Why We are Antisemites." Even among the most blatant antisemites, antisemitism does not appear blatantly in many of their statements. Even among the Nazis, there was a strong relationship between many of their goals and antisemitism that cannot be easily explained, yet united their ideology. Moishe Postone argues that:

[T]he Left has tended to concentrate on the function of National Socialism for capitalism, emphasizing the destruction of working class organizations, Nazi social and economic policies, rearmament, expansionism, and the bureaucratic mechanisms of party and state domination. Elements of continuity between the Third Reich and the Federal Republic have been stressed. The extermination of the Jews has not, of course, been ignored. Yet, it has quickly been subsumed under the general categories of prejudice, discrimination, and persecution. [1] In comprehending anti Semitism as a peripheral, rather than as a central, moment of National Socialism, the Left has also obscured the intrinsic relationship between the two.

But, as he notes, most analyses cannot account for why the Nazis didn't shift resources away from the genocide and toward the war effort.

In fact, antisemitism and leftism have a long history together. Antisemites have never been found exclusively among the right. It has been said that antisemitism is a socialism of fools. More generally, it has been an antiauthoritarianism of fools, and today it has become an anti-imperialism of fools. Instead of attacking capitalist/authoritarian/imperialist structures, the fool settles for attacking the Jews who are presumed to control those structure. This isn't necessarily a conscious antisemitism, though it can become so.

Sometimes, it is because antisemitic themes resonate well with an audience (which can be especially obvious when David Duke shows up to events in the pro-Palestinian movement). The speaker is given positive feedback and begins to rely more on such themes. I would posit that more often, the speaker falls victim to the same heuristic strategies that lead to the creation of stereotypes in the first place. Our brains are wired to look for totalizing theories explaining everything. It isn't enough that the US can have an awful foreign policy and go to war in Iraq without a good reason, there has to be a deeper reason. Because Jews are a recognizable minority with certain historical associations, they become the natural targets for these totalizing theories.

In any case, the result is that leftisms of fools divert resources away from their real targets. Naturally, of course, Jews become worried. A great many of Jews then become much more strongly identified with Israel and a great many others refute such attacks. Jews who would have been supportive of the Palestinian struggle turn away from it. So, resources are lost, and diverted, and then further diverted when social justice movements get dragged into bitter feuds about their motives. And, of course, if the argument for something is perceived as attacking Jews then it may be hard to get anyone but the right wing crazies to pay attention (unless you are fortunate enough to get a real strong, Jew-hating uprising going).

The reality of antisemitism ought to be enough that all antiracists would be concerned with it, but if that isn't enough, then fighting antisemitism can only strengthen your cause.

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  • Public Discussion (51)
insert_name_here

Nice article, and a topic that certainly needs addressing, considering the current state of Newsvine.

However, I think that the reference to the two polarized sides of politics is misleading. People (well, I) don't really fit those two sides exactly. I consider myself a leftist, except for in regards to Israel and Jewish issues, when I am more in line with the right.

  • 2 votes
Reply#1 - Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:57 PM EDT
ignoblus

Yes, the division of the world into left and right is often misleading. However, there is a long tradition of antisemitism in a variety of movements that have at least considered themselves leftists. I don't think a clarification there is quite necessary. Suffice it to say that just because you consider yourself a leftist (as I'm sure most of those selling The Protocols do, doesn't mean you are immune to antisemitism.

In particular, the worst anti-Jewish violence has come from "leftist" movements. Because these movements aren't typically in power, there isn't often a lot of violence from causes that are obviously more rightist. But when something goes wrong, when violence rightly directed against the powers that be cannot be contained, then Jews make good scapegoats. And so, the violence seems to come from nowhere. That's a very good reason not to ignore antisemitic rhetoric even when the level of violence is low.

  • 3 votes
#1.1 - Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:54 AM EDT
Djehuty

In particular, the worst anti-Jewish violence has come from "leftist" movements. Because these movements aren't typically in power, there isn't often a lot of violence from causes that are obviously more rightist.

Really? As opposed to the skinhead youth in Britain, France, Germany, and Russia? Oh, and Lithuania? (I'm assuming you're only talking post WWII, as well). That's not my reading of it, but I don't have evidence. Plus I've never heard of any left party having anything to do with the Protocols. I find this very hard to give credence to.

  • 1 vote
#1.2 - Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:21 AM EDT
ignoblus

Then keep reading the series.

  • 1 vote
#1.3 - Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:27 AM EDT
Djehuty

Sure. Good work, ignoblus.

  • 1 vote
#1.4 - Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:51 AM EDT
Adam Kemp

I don't normally consider myself a 'leftist" (although conservatives often do, because they take some views I hold and extrapolate), but I am certainly not a conservative. And for the record, I don't even know what The Protocols is. I'm assuming you meant this:

The Protocols of the (Learned) Elders of Zion, also The Protocols of the Sages of Zion or The Protocols of Zion (Russian: "Протоколы Сионских мудрецов" or "Сионские Протоколы"), is a text purporting to describe a plan to achieve global domination by Jews. Numerous independent investigations [1] have repeatedly proven it to be a hoax; most notably, a series of articles printed in The Times of London in 1921 revealed that much of the material in the Protocols was plagiarized from earlier political satire that did not have an anti-Semitic theme. (Source)

Definitely not something I'd agree with.

  • 1 vote
#1.5 - Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:37 PM EDT
Reply
niall.caldwell

Nice post. It was an interesting point you raised about anti-semitism causing Jews to retreat from supporting causes, such as the plight of the Palestinians. Personally, I believe the whole myth of the "greedy Jew" goes back to the Middle Ages, when they weren't subject to the same banking restrictions as Christians. It's about time it died.

  • 3 votes
Reply#2 - Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:27 PM EDT
Adam Kemp

I think the "what is antisemitism" topic would be good, just so we know exactly what you mean by that term. I think a lot of people use it in different ways, including things like "anti-Israeli policy" or "anti-Zionism", which I would not consider antisemitism.

Also, it would be good to define what you mean by "left", because I don't think that your use of the word coincides with what would be considered "the left" in America (at least probably not mainstream left). I could be wrong, but without a definition then I don't really know how to interpret that, or who you're realy talking about.

  • 7 votes
Reply#3 - Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:51 PM EDT
Djehuty

In my view there are two serious forms of antisemitism in the world. One is that held by the new fascist youth movements, especially in Europe and Russia. It's serious and it's insidious, and by the way it's tied up in hatred of immigrants, homosexuals, and even conservationists and liberals. They're a culture which thrives on hatred and they're lining up all the usual suspects just as they did 70 years ago.

The other is best exemplified by a Sudanese refugee I met. She hated Muslims, all Muslims (she was a Christian from southern Sudan) because of the persecution and violence she and her family had endured. She was happy to see Iraqis, even civilians, killed in the US invasion - just because they were Muslims. Now I think Israel has taken a situation where there was a certain amount of prejudice against Jews amongst Arabs, and over 50 years turned it into a deep hatred in much of the population of the surrounding states. This anti-semitism is just as wrong as any other sort but it's not going to be changed except by a long long process of dialogue, bridgebuilding, and cultural and social interchange on a one to one basis - and it's hard to see any chance of that happening at the moment.

Where there is antisemitism within the anti-zionists, I think it's as shallow as hatred of Americans. It no doubt exists, and worse it allows manipulation by more deeply anti-semitic viewpoints, but it's more a sympathetic response to the plight of others than real anti-semitism. And why won't I take it very seriously? Because I think it will pass as soon as it's no longer prompted by Israeli policy. I see it more as an overresponse and a misplaced reaction to empathy for suffering than a real issue.

If I've left anyone out of this catalogue it's the "old-school" anti-semites. Some of their children are the fascists, but many more just don't hold or understand their parents' views - so these are mainly dying out.

  • 4 votes
Reply#4 - Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:34 AM EDT
ignoblus

The next article will deal with the easier side of defining antisemitism. In particular, I will address why many people (including myself) think it is wrong to characterize anti-Islamic hatred as antisemitism. Words like Islamophobia and anti-Arab bigotry seem to suffice.

Importantly, though, antisemitism (against Jews) is not merely a fascist or right-wing problem. It has always flourished on the left as the socialism of fools.

  • 1 vote
#4.1 - Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:58 AM EDT
Reply
Guido SohneDeleted
Ugly Bastard

I for one am not surprised by the Fascism exhibited by the left on Newsvine.

Newsvine leftists will also censor your articles without a second thought. As a whole, they are not a righteous people.

Jews and Palestinians have been fighting for millennia. I think Goliath, of the David and Goliath fame, was a Palestinian or Philistine as they were called in ancient times.

Just butt out and let them go at each other.

It's what they do.

  • 2 votes
Reply#6 - Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:10 AM EDT
the_leander

Newsvine leftists will also censor your articles without a second thought. As a whole, they are not a righteous people.

Stereotypes are great aren't they? I mean you just throw about the phrase "leftist" and all the BS that goes along with it, and you don't actually have to bother thinking about what the reality is any more.

Its probably why I won't vote up this article. Hardly censorship without a second thought, I just didn't enjoy it all that much. zOMG a leftist that isn't demanding that something he doesn't like be taken down! The sky is falling!!

It doesn't matter which side of the political spectrum you are allied to, moronic broad brushing of an entire people, be it for creed, religion or political allegiance is still moronic.

As to the whole "righteous" thing, I don't think the "right" is in any position to try to take the moral high ground now, especially the American Right given how things have worked out for the past two terms.

  • 2 votes
#6.1 - Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:07 PM EDT
ignoblus

I think Goliath, of the David and Goliath fame, was a Palestinian or Philistine as they were called in ancient times.

Yes, Goliath was a Philistine, but the people now called the Palestinians do not have ancestry in the Philistines. The Romans started calling the area Palestine just to spite the Jews. The British took the name from the Romans. The people now called Palestinians took the name from the British.

  • 1 vote
#6.2 - Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:45 AM EDT
Reply
I SPY

The apologist for the Murderous Zionist war machine cries foul. The poor Jew. I would rather concern myself with the people you are Killing in Lebanon and Gaza.

As for the Killing of our UN troops, If it becomes your turn to get the carpet bombed out from under you are you going to say the UN is anti-semetic. Ofcourse you will. This is the Trivialised mentality peddled by these fools. Collective punishment shows that the Israeli's have not evolved past petty tribal blood feuds.

Get out of Gaza Get out of the west bank Get out of Lebanon. When the 1967 borders are respected so will Israel

And just to close with Israel does not have an explicit right to exist. This stupid racist clause that the Zionists claim is stopping peace is a ploy for them to continue war. No country on earth has a special "Right to Exist" This is a Nationalist load of crap. Its reminiscent of the Croatian Church or Mussolini.

  • 2 votes
Reply#7 - Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:54 AM EDT
insert_name_here

As was discussed in another article, referring to ethnic or religious groups with the definite article "the" is offensive, as it suggests that the group is single-minded and subhuman. You wouldn't refer to people of African descent collectively as "The Negro" or those of Asian descent as "the Chinaman", would you?

You suggest that Israel get out of Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon. What happened when Israel was not in two of those areas and was in the process of withdrawing from the third?

Correct Answer: Kidnappings, rocket attacks and suicide bombings.

If Israel is not recognized, the 1967 borders cannot be recognized - if Israel doesn't exist, who possesses the land inside of the 1967 borders?

  • 3 votes
#7.1 - Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:16 PM EDT
ignoblus

I don't think this is the place to discuss who's at fault or how to establish peace. The point of this series is to allow those discussions to go more smoothly.

But, as (I think, anyway), I SPY has demonstrated the need for the series, here's the second article. I'm having trouble with formatting toward the end, but here it is. It discusses 'classical antisemitism' or anti-Judaism.

  • 2 votes
#7.2 - Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:42 AM EDT
kanonole

Get out of Gaza Get out of the west bank Get out of Lebanon. ... No country on earth has a special "Right to Exist"

Aren't these things mutually exclusive? If Israel doesn't have the right to exist, then neither does Palestine or even Lebanon. That means that if the Israeli government has the power to rule those territories, then there's no reason that it shouldn't.

(Sorry; I know that's off-topic for this article.)

However, this isn't: I SPY, you have successfully demonstrated how a great deal of antisemitism creeps into discourses about Israel with the following quote.

The apologist for the Murderous Zionist war machine cries foul. The poor Jew. I would rather concern myself with the people you are Killing in Lebanon and Gaza.

Note how you have gone from "Zionists are killing people" to "Jews are killing people". I expect it is not on purpose, but you are nevertheless blaming a group of people for the actions of a subgroup of those people, and it is antisemetic. This can be avoided neatly by making sure to attribute any crimes to "Israel" or "the Israeli goverment" or "the IDF" rather than "the poor Jew". I have no problem with you objecting to Israeli policy (as long as the objections are logical; see above), but I will cry foul when you switch from blaming Israel to blaming the Jews.

  • 3 votes
#7.3 - Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:53 AM EDT
Reply
hirstopher

I SPY

Would you say people have a right to exist in relative peace and freedom? Because I'm fairly certain you can extrapolate a nation's right to exist if you characterize the nation as the collective will of the people. This is especially easy in the case of Israel, I think.

Also, this statement alone denies you any credibility or impartiality in any further postings I read of yours,

The apologist for the Murderous Zionist war machine cries foul. The poor Jew. I would rather concern myself with the people you are Killing in Lebanon and Gaza."

Why is only one side important to you? Are Lebanese and Gazan lives more important than Israeli lives? More importantly, why are you so hateful?

  • 4 votes
Reply#8 - Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:19 PM EDT
I SPY

Norman Finkelstein, a Jewish scholar who has taught political science at City University of New York (Hunter College), says in his book, The Holocaust Industry, that "invoking The Holocaust" is "a ploy to delegitimize all criticism of Jews." [13] "By conferring total blamelessness on Jews, the Holocaust dogma immunizes Israel and American Jewry from legitimate censure ... Organized Jewry has exploited the Nazi holocaust to deflect criticism of Israel's and its own morally indefensible policies." He writes of the brazen "shakedown" of Germany, Switzerland and other countries by Israel and organized Jewry "to extort billions of dollars." "The Holocaust," Finkelstein predicts, "may yet turn out to be the 'greatest robbery in the history of mankind'."

Today the danger is greater than ever. Israel and Jewish organizations, in collaboration with this country's pro-Zionist "amen corner," are prodding the United States — the world's foremost military and economic power — into new wars against Israel's enemies. As the French ambassador in London recently acknowledged, Israel — which he called "that @!$%#ty little country" — is a threat to world peace. "Why should the world be in danger of World War III because of those people?," he said.

  • 2 votes
Reply#9 - Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:54 AM EDT
Marilyn L

I Spy, the problem is that scapgoating of Jews is a litmus test of violence to come. If you can get people to hate Jews, it's easier to get them to hate in general.

Hitler scapegoated Jews to unify Germany in his vision of German supremacy. Radical Islam is now using Jews in exactly the same way.

If people miss the signals that are being openly stated by radical Islam worldwide we risk a world war again, this time for Islamic supremacy.

I do not mean to scapegoat Muslims. I speak only of the extremists in their midst. Those extremists include Hamas, Hizballah, Al Qaida, the fundamentalist Islamic government of Iran, etc.

  • 4 votes
#10 - Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:15 AM EDT
Guido SohneDeleted
I SPY

Isee that Israel wants to extend the BTC oil Pipeline From Turkey to Cypres.

Afghanistan-Turkey-Balkans-Western Europe. More than a martini, oil-arms-drugs is the classic CIA cocktail. This "Drugistan" road has been spectacularly reopened after the fall of the Taliban. Islamic fundamentalism has always been a key card in the American strategic design since the Cold War days when the CIA subcontracted to the Pakistani ISI the arm-them-to-their-teeth policy regarding the mujahideen. It is always easy to forget that the good-guys-turned-bad-guys were once were hailed by Ronnie Reagan himself at the Oval Office as "the moral equivalent of the founding fathers".

    #10.2 - Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:22 PM EDT
    Djehuty

    I started to respond to this thread, but once again my prolixity got out of control, sorry ;-) So the result is here.

      #10.3 - Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:02 PM EDT
      kanonole

      Blaming Israel's policy on Jews is not unfair because it is really only Jews who have a say in determining Israel's policy.

      This is precisely the logical error that heralds antisemitism and racism. It may be the case that only Jews have a say in Israeli policy, but it is not all Jews. You can't go from "members of a group do this" to "the group does this". It's an easy mistake to make, though, which is why antisemitism and racism and other forms of hatred are so widespread. It's easy to say "well, all of the people who do this thing I don't like are in this group, so the group must support those things," but it's not true. The only time you can blame a group for a policy is if membership of the group is contingent on holding that policy.

      I find it confusing that if Jews in general want to not be hated, then they would do things to make some people hate them?

      The flaw is that "Jews in general" don't want anything. Some Jews want to not be hated, some Jews do things that make some people hate them, some Jews support Israel, some Jews don't, etc. But you can't talk about "Jews in general". That's where antisemitism comes from.

      • 1 vote
      #10.4 - Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:29 PM EDT
      Guido SohneDeleted
      ignoblus

      I find it confusing that if Jews in general want to not be hated, then they would do things to make some people hate them?

      Guido, this is very close to blaming the victims. I could ask, "if the Palestinians want a state, why do they provoke Israel?" or "if a woman wants not to get beaten, then why can't she just have dinner on the table?"

      I think the things Israel (not "Jews") is doing are counterproductive for a lot of reasons, but it is important to distinguish between using flawed means to pursue something legitimate and using any means to pursue something illegitimate.

      • 2 votes
      #10.6 - Tue Aug 1, 2006 8:55 AM EDT
      Guido SohneDeleted
      kanonole

      Two things:

      Israel is their state, if you look at it from their point of view.

      Then where are the mass applications for Israeli citizenship among the Palestinians? The fact is, they don't want to live in Israel. They want to live in a Palestine that covers all of the land currently controlled by Israel. And until they are willing to settle for less, there can be no lasting peace.

      But there can be no peace without justice.

      What about India and the British? What about the American civil rights movement? Those movements only became successful when their leaders (Ghandi, MLK) realized that peace comes not from insisting that your opponent pay for what they've done, but rather from saying "forget the past; this isn't right at the present time." Nasrallah's version of justice is to kill one Israeli civilian for every Lebanese civilian, and while that may or may not be just, it is certainly wrong.

      • 1 vote
      #10.8 - Wed Aug 2, 2006 9:58 AM EDT
      Zeina

      @Guido

      you said: "I'm not Arab, and I don't even like them".
      ok, like or dislike whoever you want, but I'm very curious if you would get away with it if you replaced "arab" by "black" or "jewish" or ...

      • 3 votes
      #10.9 - Wed Aug 2, 2006 10:34 AM EDT
      Guido SohneDeleted
      Zeina

      Guido,
      I'm not sure what region you are talking about. I only know about Africa in general.
      Regarding the exploitation of Africa, I do agree with you and I'm very angry about it. I'm also very angry about how people in my country treat foreign workers from poorer countries like Srilanka and Ethiopia.
      Take for example the diamond industry: they think they are going there just to get money and it has nothing to do with what's going on (most of the time they don't even interact with the indigenous people) and they never consider thinking about the rest of the population that they are getting rich at their expense.

      There are a lot of other problems that need to be addressed too, and believe me, when westerners (who are not without their own sins) intervene, it is making it much more difficult for activists to accomplish anything.

      • 2 votes
      #10.11 - Wed Aug 2, 2006 9:59 PM EDT
      Marilyn L

      @Guido, I'm sorry I didn't answer your original questions, but I lost track of the discussion. And made a mistake (I copied the same text into another thread, from which Djehuty wrote an article that discusses my comment above). I'll never again post the same response in two places, because it became too complicated to track.

      So, please take a look at the article, and then we can discuss this if you like. Thanks.

        #10.12 - Wed Aug 2, 2006 10:18 PM EDT
        Guido SohneDeleted
        Guido SohneDeleted
        Marilyn L

        I referenced it in the above post (see the word article, it's a link), but here it is again: The brink of the abyss: battle not with monsters.

          #10.15 - Wed Aug 2, 2006 10:28 PM EDT
          Reply
          Guido SohneDeleted
          ignoblus

          I've just seeded this, a chapter on the Blood Libel from a forthcoming book by Anthony Julius. Anyone who was interested in this discussion will surely be interested in that.

          • 1 vote
          Reply#12 - Thu Oct 5, 2006 1:45 PM EDT
          urbane gorilla

          wow, i go away for the weekend & look at what I miss. Very thoughtful & brave writing ignoblus.

          • 1 vote
          Reply#13 - Sun Oct 8, 2006 11:35 PM EDT
          ignoblus

          After what seems like interminable delay, Part III is up.

          • 2 votes
          Reply#14 - Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:15 PM EST
          urbane gorilla

          Having read part III, i decided to review the whole series.

          One point: a particular foible of the left is the near-automatic championing of an underdog. in fact, the assigning of the underdog role seems more leftist than rightist, the corollary on the right being of a more Calvinist bent - "You get what you deserve."

          • 2 votes
          Reply#15 - Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:06 PM EST
          ignoblus

          True, but the stereotype of Jews is as super-privileged elites. As the third article points out, Wilhelm Marr held a position similar to that during a period when Jews were still quite oppressed everywhere and especially in Russia where there were still Pogroms going on. If the stereotype of Jews is "rich" how can Jews ever be perceived as the underdog, except during a Holocaust?

          Of course, just because leftists tend to prefer the underdog doesn't always mean it's the appropriate thing for them to do. And what happens when the rights of two oppressed groups come into conflict?

          • 4 votes
          #15.1 - Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:15 PM EST
          urbane gorilla

          My point was with respect to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict in particular. The left loves its Palestinian underdogs, and yes, whether by design or default, Jews become the top dogs, i.e. the bad guys. Among other things, this totally infantilizes the Palestinians, allowing their actions to be judged at a very low standard - how can this be helpful?

          Again, the error of the right is to deny disadvantaged groups even exist.

          • 2 votes
          #15.2 - Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:38 PM EST
          Reply
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